IN CONVERSATION WITH IMRE AND MARNE VAN OPSTAL

interview by MAREK BARTEK

Numéro Netherlands proudly presents Imre and Marne van Opstal in our issue 11 ‘Odyssey’. Siblings and an iconic choreographic duo started their careers with prominent dance companies like Nederlands Dans Theater and Batsheva, and later moved on to work on projects for various cultural institutions. With an impressive range of works including ‘I am Bob’ or ‘Eye Candy’, they developed a truly signature language that explores limits and possibilities of human experiences.

Something I’ve been noticing is the rising popularity of choreography as a form of expression to the mainstream stage. We’ve seen it with TROYE SIVAN’s videos or video productions of the band JUNGLE. They have been getting a lot of attention in the past months. How do you perceive this shift, if at all?

Marne: We definitely see it. I think TikTok has been a big part of this. People are now finally understanding what it means to be a choreographer, and begin to acknowledge it as a profession.

Imre: When the whole world went upside down in 2020, people were desperate to celebrate life. And all of a sudden, dance became a huge part of that, because all you could do was dance in your living room or on the street or dance on social media and communicate that way. It also goes back to a movement that existed for a long time as a form of celebration. Dance connects people in that way. It opens a space for people to see our differences and similarities. And that’s what being human is.

Marne: But when it comes to the craft of choreography, there’s a growing demand to be a part of different projects. Many people are reaching out because they want to work interdisciplinarily not just in dance, but also in movement direction and photoshoots. You can see it happening more and more during fashion shows. They want the models to really have a movement vision and move a certain way. People wanting to collaborate with choreographers is definitely a big shift. I don’t remember it being that way when we were young. I think it also adds this huge element to entertainment.

Imre: It’s fun to see people dance and move. Visually, it’s a beautiful and stunning discipline because it has a moving element. Choreography is not something new, it just got more exposure, that’s all.

Your careers began with prominent dance companies like Nederlands Dans Theater and Batsheva. What were some of the most impactful experiences or mentors during those early years that shaped your approach to choreography and dance? 

Marne:  It’s a very good question but it’s also very hard to answer. Working with a variety of creators at NDT taught us a lot, both from the creative process and the performances. Collaborating with Peeping Tom was a pivotal experience, showing us new ways of working. It was very eye opening and refreshing, but now I’m not sure if I could call them mentors.

Imre: Mentors can be anyone, even fellow dancers. Watching talented dancers at NDT taught us as much as working with choreographers. At NDT, you learn to be versatile; with Batsheva, you dive deeply into one style. Both approaches leave a lasting impact on how you express yourself.

Marne: Yes, these experiences shape you, like memory foam absorbing everything, and they become a part of our own movement style.

Imre: The key is transforming this knowledge to reflect what you want to express and finding joy in movement.

Among one of your latest works is a piece, ’I am Bob’. Could you walk us through how you are exploring the effects of patterns in dance in this project, and what can audiences expect from this large choreographic web of identity?

Imre: The idea around ‘I am Bob’ is basically what the world would look like if everyone was the same, acted the same, had the same identity, same views, same way of living. What would society look like after stripping away our unique personalities and characters? 

Marne: When we zoom out and really look at how we are as human beings, we realise that we are all in these perpetuating systems. It’s like looking at humanity as a system where we all play roles, almost like ants in an anthill. The character “Bob” represents the ordinary person, raising questions about identity and free will, which we convey by letting these systems unravel on stage.

The other project you have recently presented was a collaboration with composer Anna von Hausswolff, ’Atlas Song’ for the Göthenborg Dance Company. How has it been to work on this creation directly with a composer and how did it shape the vision and actualisation of this project?

Imre: It was a different kind of show than we normally make, that’s for sure. You can call it a hybrid show between concert and dance. She was on stage with her band, together with the dancers, so it was important that we create a world where both music and dance can exist at the same time, but also provide a space for her to exist. The idea was to create an ongoing journey without making it feel like it’s like a Spotify playlist. Something that is theatrical, but seamlessly going from one thing into the other, while making perfect sense. 

Marne: It was really good timing because she had just released her new album, and so we really tried to base the show around her inspiration for the album. There are themes of self-discovery and identity, about carrying certain things and having to let go of them. We wanted to use this not as a narrative threat, but rather as a thematic threat through the evening.

How long does it take for you to choreograph something? 

Imre: Normally it’s usually around six to eight weeks but this one was a quickie. It took us four weeks, which is one of the fastest, creative processes that we have ever done. With music as a big focus, we didn’t need to fill every moment with dance, which added a new rhythm to the show.

Marne: Exactly! She has two drummers, two guitars, a saxophone, and she plays organ and piano, so there’s plenty going on. On top of that there’s lighting and stage setup, so we could give the space and time. It really brought a different dynamic and rhythm to the show. 

Your work often goes into the human condition, exploring limits and possibilities. Can you elaborate on how you choose the themes for your pieces and what drives your artistic vision?

Imre: Our themes are never like a science project. We’re not proving anything, we don’t have the answers. We just like to ask the questions ourselves, and hopefully through that the audience maybe finds a possible answer or a feeling that they can take with them.

Marne: It always starts with the dialogue between the two of us. We just love to look around and see what’s going on in our environment, or how we process things, and dive into these topics. There’s a lot of interesting things to talk about but they might not be very interesting to look at. It’s about finding a dramatic urgency and giving the topic a sense of development. Even if we work with the most abstract things, we still need to find that core that drives it forward. Otherwise, you’re looking at a dead piece of art.

Imre: We always ask and keep coming back to what is the visual aspect of anything we do and what impact does that have on the viewer.

On a more technical side, your choreography is known for its eclecticism and surrealistic elements. How do you approach the deconstruction of movement, and what methods do you use to push the boundaries of what is possible in dance?

Marne: I think because we’ve done so much ourselves, we know what to expect, if that makes any sense. And so, we are always looking for something that makes us feel on a deeper level, something that moves us and takes us somewhere else we didn’t expect. Generally, that happens when we’re in the studio, and we feel something that’s novel to us and get excited. 

Imre: When we connect to that moment, all of a sudden, it’s not just about beautiful dancing for us, it’s deeper than that – and it also shows the way we coach the dancers with whom we have been working. We do a lot of improvisation tasks and warm ups, where we can get them to move the way we would like. And through research and practice, they slowly start to move with that quality we want to explore for that specific work. It’s always a bit of a mystery because it happens in the moment.

Marne: It’s interesting because now, more than ever, we’re dealing with dancers who think they know our style. That’s why we always have this mantra: ‘There’s nothing to achieve, only to experience.’ We don’t want people to come in and have preconceptions about the piece because it might be completely different. We always want them to look for the experience and not try to recreate something they already know they can do. That’s also something we always try to push ourselves to do, and I think that’s where we find this surrealistic feeling, and the way we construct, so people can feel the shifts and changes. It’s weird to subscribe to a certain style. We’re still figuring a lot of things out, so we don’t want to be put in a box. Who knows, maybe our next piece will be completely different.

When it comes to you two collaboration, how is it to work together as siblings? There is, of course, a very professional side to your career but there’s also a very personal aspect of really being connected as a family.

Imre: It’s a question we always get. It’s like wearing two hats but working together is beautiful. When you find a partner in crime, someone you trust and can have a dialogue with, it’s like finding gold. Creating is such a personal thing, and it’s hard to have your own voice if you don’t have that space with someone else.

Marne: True, it takes flexibility to make it work. We balance our personal and professional roles, though sometimes we need a reminder to just be siblings, not coworkers. That’s actually the hardest part, giving space to being brother and sister. We work so much together that it’s so easy to slip into work.

Imre: At the same time it’s also very comforting. The dance world can be isolating, so having family makes it less lonely. We’re lucky to have that support in such a demanding field.

Marne: The fast pace of the dance world puts pressure on everyone involved, not just us. Having each other helps us stay grounded through it all.

That actually perfectly flows into my next question. In ‘Take Root’, you explore intuitive impulses and their impact on human connections. Can you discuss how you worked with dancers to uncover and express these layers of instinct and emotion?

Imre: I think specifically ‘Take Root’ was where we both grew a lot and really tried a lot of different things. We really workshopped and asked the dancers to explore with us. We opened the studio and the creative process to them.

Marne: We aimed to bring out these moments where something becomes super real through doing it over and over and over. It felt almost therapeutic at times. By stripping back conditioning, the dancers found their own truths, which led to a deeply collaborative and inspiring process. We gave them space to explore, improvising and building from authentic moments, which is where true artistry comes out.

So there was a lot of improvisation, I suppose. 

Imre: Absolutely! We spent a lot of time researching and improvising, letting things develop organically before piecing it together.

Marne: I think though, from an outsider’s perspective, if you came into the studio, it would look crazy. It was very intense. We laughed a lot, we cried a lot. There was a lot going on but it’s how real growth happens. It’s about exploring deeply, not just recreating something that already exists.

Imre: Every dancer brings something unique, so we just provide the tools. It’s up to them to decide how far they want to push their boundaries.

I wonder, if you say how intense these rehearsals were and then you move to an actual performance on stage with the audience, it must be quite a shift. How do you view these two? 

Marne: There’s always a shift. First, it feels like a private party and you almost forget other people are going to see it. But then you come on stage and suddenly become very aware that you’re making a show. At the end of the day, everything needs to be precise. We have to hit musical cues and light changes, but it’s a natural process. Every dancer understands this.

Imre: We are basically a VIP audience. We get to see dancers from up close during their best and the worst days of the creative process, but it’s such an intimate environment. And then the moment you bring it on stage, all of a sudden you have this distance. Of course, you lose certain things that you may have felt in the studio, but you gain other things again, and all of a sudden you see everything slowly clicking.

I feel like it’s two completely different words.

Imre: Sometimes, I wish people could just see the whole process and really understand what people go through, what the progression is and what then the result is. People only see the end, which is a snapshot of that snapshot.

Marne: People also say that when they see the work again, completely different things come out. It’s like when you watched a movie when you were young, and now, 20 or 30 years later you watch it again. And you’ve had the actual heartbreak, you’ve had some of these things happen to you and suddenly they resonate with you on such a different level.

‘Voodoo Waltz’ is your first full evening work created with both actors and dancers, and the inspiration for ‘Voodoo Waltz’ came from Janja Rakuš’s namesake book. How did you translate the hyper graphic and multidimensional aspects of the book into a live performance, and what was your process for adapting its content for the stage? What was it like for you to work on this piece?

Marne: This was a fascinating process, especially since it was commissioned for Schauspielhaus Bochum, an amazing theatre. We needed a dramatic text because actors need words, but it took us a while to find the right material. Actually, it wasn’t a script at all, we had to make it into one. Imre had this book on the laptop for maybe three years and it was just there. We were looking at different things – some classical works that maybe we could reproduce but the problem is that you cannot change a single thing. And that didn’t work for us because we needed to have a space where both text and dance have their own power in equal measure. 

Imre: Exactly. Why say something if you can dance it, and why dance it if you can say it? Both dance and words are powerful, but dance often expresses more feeling. We wanted to avoid making dance an “illustration” of text. This book’s abstract form allowed us to adapt, strip, and flip the content.

Marne: However, the book was very layered and difficult. We worked with dramaturgs Fabienne Vegt and Leonie Adam to make sure that we still tell the story but at the same time keep this openness for dance. It was an absolute mind fuck but it was amazing. Working with experienced actors taught us a lot, as they constantly seek the “why,” while in dance, we’re more comfortable with the unknown.

Imre: It ended up being almost like a two hour show. But again, the rhythm of the work was very different from what we normally have. Text takes time—an eight-minute monologue is a lot of time for dance. But we embraced it, working with Pierre Bokma, a very talented and very experienced actor. Seeing the dancers and actors learn from each other was really beautiful.

I wonder how you came across that book. I know it was on your computer, but still. 

Imre: You know, sometimes you dive into the internet. I didn’t even know what I was looking at. I was reading through different poems and books, stumbled across it, and saved it. When we couldn’t find the right material, I remembered it was there.

Marne: It actually gave us a lot of freedom. We had to change a lot because we weren’t going to perform for 36 hours straight. We adapted characters, cut some, and shifted others to make the story work. It’s fascinating to follow more complex characters, and Janja Rakuš loved the result, which was rewarding.

Another piece of yours, that you’ve already mentioned, ’Baby Don’t Hurt Me’ involved the performers’ personal experiences on themes of identity and love. How did you create an environment where dancers felt comfortable sharing their intimate stories, and how did these personal narratives shape the final piece?

Marne: This is not where we started. Originally, we wanted to explore “fakeness” and how we all present idealised versions of ourselves. We invited dancers to share something real or fake, leaving it up to them. But over time, we noticed they wanted to be real—they wanted to share their true selves. That openness is the strength of the piece. The title comes from the song because we used it in a different rendition in the piece but it also speaks on vulnerability of someone sharing their deepest feelings in hopes that they won’t be held against them. 

Imre: I’m proud of that group because dancers rarely share their personal stories. There was a moment when they realised this would be on stage for thousands of people, which takes courage.

Marne: Radical honesty. The audience response was incredible. We touched on themes like ageism, racism, and gender transition—topics that resonated with everyone. It shows that, at our core, we all crave connection.

Imre: We reminded the dancers that no one would know if it was real or fake, but I think the audience can feel authenticity. I’m glad we created a safe space for that vulnerability.

Connected to that is also the other piece and that’s ‘Eye Candy ’. While ’Baby Don’t Hurt Me’ was more about your inner feelings and personal story, ‘Eye Candy’ is more focused on the physicality of the body. And I just have to say, I loved the costume design. 

Imre: Yeah, this one is more connected to why it is such a taboo and why we are so ashamed of our physical bodies. We wanted to show the audience, by actually showing breastplates and chest plates made of silicon, what’s wrong about it.

Marne: And apart from that, of course, also comes the sexualization and the beauty ideals. We explored beauty ideals and the binary view of gender. Those exaggerated masculine and feminine forms expose how we sexualize and judge bodies.

Imre: I also think about the physicality of it all. We wanted to feel as if it was not dancers moving the body but another force. We went into very different research and ways of creating this.

Marne: Very artsy, very strange, very eclectic, very out there. It’s an exploration of our disconnect from our physical selves. Dancers are highly aware of their bodies, but most people aren’t. We might actually revisit this theme because there’s so much to unpack.

Except for performances that you made for theatres, you’ve also worked with other artists and brands. You’ve collaborated with the singer Lykke Li, you’ve created stuff for Dior’s Spring/Summer 2023 collection. What is it like working with someone else who has such a strong branding themselves?

Imre: With every multidisciplinary job, whether it’s Dior, Jordan Wolfson, Lykke Li, RYX, or Porsche, you’re stepping into a world with more creatives and more voices. It’s about recognising your strengths and what you can offer while also taking in their information and knowledge. It’s a beautiful way to learn about different disciplines and deepen your own expertise through these diverse perspectives.

Marne: It’s easier for us because we’re used to opening the process. It’s similar to working in the studio, where you give space to people, adapt yourself, and constantly understand the client’s needs. 

Imre: With Maria Grazia Chiuri from Dior, for example, it was extremely easy. She was like, "You guys are great, just do your thing." But still, this is the catwalk, with a very specific set design. It’s a puzzle to fit everything together—figuring out where the dancers fit in without stealing the show, and ensuring it all works seamlessly.

Marne: At the end of the day, it’s about making sure everything works and feels balanced. It’s not about us; it’s about many other elements coming together cohesively. We love working with other people and learning from these collaborations.

Imre: Having frameworks can also push your creativity in unexpected directions. People sometimes forget that choreographers can do so much more than “make steps”—we create experiences.

You said you love a lot of different things, and I think this also ties to what you said about people’s expectations on choreographers’ jobs, but your work is known for very strong visual elements, lighting or costume design. To what degree are you actually a part of that process and in which areas do you collaborate with the teams?

Marne: We are involved in everything. everything. We work super closely with the light design team, with the composers, and with the set design team. We do a lot of the costumes and set design ourselves, too. We select photography and text that you see. It’s very important to communicate in a cohesive voice. That’s a super fun thing about choreography but the title doesn’t quite do it justice. It’s a more creative direction, but then also a choreographer. 

Imre: The title choreographer is not enough. It’s misunderstood a lot. I think in the dance world we all know and understand it because we know what it means. But if we are in the theatre setting or in fashion, it’s much a bigger umbrella. People think you’re just making steps but you’re essentially creating the whole experience. And you do that with your team and in collaboration with other people. But yeah, that’s why we love it and also why we have so many different interests. And that’s also why we like to work with visual artists and different people and see how they approach our ideas. We worked at Studio Drift, for example, on this production of NDT. We worked with Jordan Wolfson, he had a big exposition a few years ago in Stedelijk. He works with robotics. It’s a very different process, he’s sitting there for hours, programming through 3D models, what this robot was going to do. Much slower than how we would normally work with a human being but he basically needs to think like a choreographer. Every motion needs to be programmed and perfectly timed. It’s super fascinating. 

In June 2025, ‘Vice Versa’ will premiere at Semperoper Dresden, sharing an evening with Sidi Larbi Cherkaoui and collaborating with visual artist Boris Acket. What can you share with us about this creation? Are there any specific themes and concepts you are excited to explore?

Marne: We’re working with Boris Acket, who is also based here in Amsterdam but is also doing a lot internationally, for this production in Dresden at the end of this year, at Semperoper. He works a lot with these wind objects and different elements, and we love that. We really like to work with different people, it shakes things up a bit, which is cool. The program is called ‘Vice Versa’, but the piece itself is still untitled. 

Imre: It’s going to be a big production, which is exciting, but it feels so far away. Time goes so quickly these days. We’re always creating for the future, and it’s interesting to think about where we will be personally when we finally enter the studio for this production.

Marne: It’s strange to always be thinking so far ahead. You hope you still like your ideas when you finally get to that point. There’s always space to change things, but some elements, like the set design, are fixed and can’t be changed. Unlike musicians who often have to perform songs about past personal experiences, we have the flexibility to adapt our work as we go.

TEAM CREDITS:
photography DANIEL SARS
interview MAREK BARTEK
editor TIMI LETONJA